Welcome to this episode of The Writing Coach podcast; I’m excited to share my conversation with my friend and client Lorraine Johnston, an Amazon best-selling author who has written a book on using AI to assist with the writing process.
In our discussion, Lorraine shares her journey from journaling to publication and how she came to explore ChatGPT’s capabilities. We discuss some of the common misconceptions around AI and writing and how Lorraine debunks these ideas through practical examples. Lorraine also provides insights into how she has used ChatGPT as a creative writing tool while still developing her craft. I hope you enjoy learning from Lorraine’s experiences and perspectives on the intersection of technology and storytelling.
Listen to the episode or read the transcript below:
The Writing Coach Episode #195 Show Notes
Download the FREE Scene Alchemy Essentials Checklist Now!
The Writing Coach Episode #195 Transcript
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | RSS
Kevin Johns
Well, first off that let me ask you, how does it feel to be an Amazon Best Selling Author?
Lorraine
To be honest, it feels surreal. It really does feel surreal. It feels great. It’s a bit like a deer in headlights kind of feeling. But more than anything, I really love the fact that people are buying the book, but buying the book to learn. And that is what really drives me I think that’s really cool.
Kevin Johns
Did you suspect there would be an audience for it the way there has been?
Lorraine
I did because I mean, let’s face it. AI is a big topic these days. It’s a massive topic. The purpose that I wrote the book was just to show people how to use it but really to reassure writers that we’re not going to get replaced anytime soon. The technology is just not there. Yeah, it’s impressive that it can string together words that really look like a sentence. But when you want to talk about really good writing, it’s not capable of doing that.
Kevin Johns
Well, we’re definitely going to talk a lot about AI in this interview, but let’s go back to your beginnings. When was the moment where you said I’m going to be a writer or where writing really got on your radar is something you wanted to do.?
Lorraine
It started in 2016. I’m a big time journal, journal lawyer. And I sat down one day to write in my journal. My mother in law was sick at the time. And so I was writing about her journey. Through this sickness. And this story popped in my head by the way, and a witch trying to really denying the magic that she has, and of course, being a serious time in my life, I ignored the story until eventually wouldn’t be ignored. And then two weeks later, I decided to write it in my journal. And then that was the beginning things went from there. I wrote the story showed it to a friend, which apparently you’re never supposed to show your ugly first draft. showed it to a friend she said I had to publish it. Didn’t feel like I could cuz I didn’t know the craft, joined an online group and then eventually found my way to you. And you would help to straighten me out when it came to the craft.
Kevin Johns
Do you remember how you found me how we connected?
Lorraine
I went looking on Google
Kevin Johns
Were you looking for a writing coach anywhere in the world or were you looking for Ottawa based writing code?
Lorraine
I was looking for an Ottawa based. It was before the pandemic and I figured that we would meet in person once a week.
Kevin Johns
And we did, right? We definitely met a few times in person to begin kick things off to kick thing off.
Lorraine
Then we both realized that we could actually do this remotely. And then of course, the pandemic yet we kept working and you got me to the point where that current piece of work is actually with an editor. So I’m working with her on that.
Kevin Johns
Do you remember when you first heard about chat GPT
Lorraine
I was looking for a way to make money online. And one of the things I did is take a couple of courses on blogging, and one of the places where I’m I was writing with medium.com and articles started to show up in my feed about charity and how writers were just not very happy with the tool that they were going to get replaced. And it was all of this angst and this fear actually being expressed through these articles. So being curious off I went and had a look at chat to PT and realize pretty quickly that writers didn’t have anything to fear. There were limitations to the tool. It was a very powerful tool but certainly limitations to it.
Kevin Johns
So why was your immediate response curiosity? Even though it was coming from reading these kinds of fear mongering articles or articles where people were expressing concern? What made you go I gotta look into this thing. Everyone’s so afraid. Well,
Lorraine
two things First of all, I’ve spent the last 26 years in technology. So when I see new apps, when I see new developments in technology, I’m always curious. I want to check it out. I want to see what it is. It’s just like you know somebody who has a real fascination with cars. As soon as the new car comes out, they have to go and look at it. Well, technology is like that for me. So that was one. And the second thing I’ve always known is that if there’s a lot of noise, there’s something to it. So let’s go check out and see what happens. I’m one of the first people that if there’s a fire in the neighborhood, I’m out there checking it out.
Kevin Johns
I think that curiosity that natural curiosity is probably what makes you a great learner as well.
Lorraine
Yes, yes. And it’s, I have I would just say it. I’m very lucky from the point of view that I have a good basis in technology, so I understand exactly how it works. And then with that, I can actually go through a lot of information in a very short amount of time. So I can tell pretty quickly what is good information and what is really not so good and doesn’t apply.
Kevin Johns
Building on that idea. What are some of the major misconceptions you see out there when it comes to AI and how writers might be able to use it?
Lorraine
Well, first of all, one of the biggest misconceptions is that AI is a writer is an author and it is not it can string together the way it’s been program. It’s strings together words, but it doesn’t understand any of the grammar rules surrounding it. It doesn’t understand whether something is true or not because it’s looking for patterns and when you look for a pattern, something that keeps repeating then of course you don’t make that sort of judgment value judgment that we make as human beings it just is not capable of doing that. So the Misconception Number one out writers are going to be replaced, not by a long shot. The second thing is is that with the way that chatty putty works, is the fact that it goes out in plagiarizes it doesn’t plagiarize it’s incapable of plagiarizing. It can string together a series of words that come close to what someone has written. Or it will leave and do it once. But if you asked to do it again, it cannot string together the same words, just because of the way that the programming works. So that’s the second thing. The other question is the whole question regarding copy. Right? I’m not sure about that one. Simply because it has to do with the datasets that are cheaper to work on. One of the biggest data sets has gone into what they call a web crawl that takes a picture a snapshot of everything that’s on the internet. Now what the rules are regarding copywriting of that dado or I don’t know, but Chachi PT does not go directly to the web, and take things people put on the web. It goes through and it actually, like obtains datasets from other companies. So that is also a misconception.
Kevin Johns
The datasets from other companies… so do you mean it’s not just pulling it from the internet? There’s other companies that have gathered data that it?
Lorraine
Yes. So other companies gather the data and they make it available? The biggest one makes it available to companies, to researchers to entrepreneurs, for them to be able to take that data and analyze it in order to come up with new products, new services, that sort of thing. The company actually believes in an open and transparent internet which is why they do what they do and make the data available.
Kevin Johns
Isn’t Open AI the name of the company making Chad CPT as well? the word “open” right there.
Lorraine
Yes, yes, yes. So it’s, but it’s always the case of me whenever there’s any ambiguity. It’s always a case of people are not sure whether copyright laws have been broken or not. So it’s one of those anomalies and gray areas.
Kevin Johns
One of the complaints or concerns I’ve heard is when people say, Well, you can’t says I was like, I remember when Wikipedia first started and everyone said the same thing as well. Oh my god, don’t trust Wikipedia. Anyone can update that. And it’s like, yeah, yeah. You have to have that in your mind.
Lorraine
yeah, check it out, use the same thing. So it does in fact, check like the last. So if you’re doing research, and you’re asking, I don’t know. I mean, it’s pretty good. But let’s say you’re asking for a list of all of the publications that A reporter has actually committed to, well, you need to fact check that because let’s say the journalist actually wrote for The New York Times. Well, in its training chat GPT may have developed a pattern or seen a pattern where the New York Times, The Guardian, and the Ottawa Citizen are a repeating pattern where normally if a reporter submitted to one, those were the most common that came up over and over again. So if you ask about a reporter who has submitted to the New York Times, tech TPT, may come back and say Yes, they’ve submitted to the Ottawa Citizen and The Guardian as well. And when you fact check, no, they have not, but it’s because the way that it learned is that it group together those three papers, and when it answers you back, it just assumes that the pattern follows.
Kevin Johns
So this is all obviously very technical stuff. Yes. Some writers aren’t very technical, but some of the feedback I’ve heard about your book is people saying, Oh, she teaches it in such an approachable way. It’s such an understandable way. And I know you’ve created these characters to help the reader understand all these concepts. Can you tell us a little bit about how you approached teaching this kind of complicated computer stuff for artists and writers.
Lorraine
The first so the first thing just based on my experience, I know that if we don’t explain it in terms people understand, then that’s it. I mean, that I saw that in my day, job day after day after day. So when I looked at the definition of what chat GPT is, the first thing that comes up is something extremely technical, extremely technical. So then it was the matter of how do we break this down so that people understand exactly what’s happening and I understand, so I had helped with this, I asked Chuck JpT to help me explain in terms that I can understand what this technical jargon means. And so based on that, it came back and they said about Neuro Linguistic Programming is like teaching a parrot how to talk. So we came up with Paulie, the parent and NLP which is Neuro Linguistic Programming is essentially that it’s teaching language so that the poly the computer, well provide sentences that look like the way we speak. So there’s half of the equation and then of course, there’s the learning because one of the things that is so massively great is that there’s a lot of information out there. And so what we came up with was Luna, the librarian. So all of this data that was gathered together by these companies, so like the all of the webpages and everything were used as a basis. So we call that the library. So imagine Luna, the librarian. Sitting in the middle of this massive, massive building, going through each one of those books or or web pages, but she’s not looking for the actual information and understanding of the information as we know it. What she’s doing is looking for connections between one book one website and that sort of thing. So then when you type in your question, first thing that happens is the question goes to Luna and she starts to gather all of the information. She remembers and that she’s made connections with. And then once you’ve downloaded that, she hands it over to Polly, who then really spruces it up and comes back in a language in a structure that we understand. So that’s how they’re working together. So it was really it was actually quite fun. Doing that piece of the book. I really enjoyed that piece.
Kevin Johns
For people who haven’t played with AI in chat GPT might think that oh the way a user or writer would use chat GP is you sit down and you say write me a book about this. Right? Whereas when you say we came up with this, I think this is a reflection of the fact that this tool is really useful as a conversation. Not at you don’t say write me a book you have a conversation about different things. Can you talk a little bit about that process of CO writing with the AI as opposed that’s a write a book for me?
Lorraine
So one of the things about AI. and when. the things simple way that chip it is structured is. that you will have questions. It has a prompt and prompt is really another word for question. So what you do is you ask questions, and it comes back with an answer in paragraph form. So just even the ability to do that tech technologically is amazing. But as a writer, one of the things that I run across in my own writing over and over again, is I will get writer’s block. I will try and figure out I have a challenge in front of me and I cannot see through that challenge on my own or the ideas that I come up with are very limited. So then I go into chat TPT and I will pose a question to say if some are. stuck in the middle of a forest somewhere. and they had to get out, and this was the. only thing that was available to them. What suggestions do you have for them to get out? And so it has come back and it has actually given me five six suggestions. Now, sometimes I usually what happens with me is I will take those suggestions and they become the food for my own ideas. So it’s like oh, no, I don’t like this but I like this and I like this so we’re gonna combine them and all of a sudden you’re awaited the races and the writer’s block that you had is gone. It’s just triggered that your brain to be able to start making the connections ahead with it. And so for me, I use it really strongly for brainstorming tool and not so much for to develop the story for me. It’s just to be able to say okay, well that’s not working or one of the things for me, it’s also interiority I have, I can write an action scene like no tomorrow I can sit down and in 15 minutes, I’ve got an action scene. But where I find a challenge and the skill that I’m developing is actually having the the main characters interiority come through, like what thoughts they’re thinking, what are they feeling? Do I intersperse that between the action what happens after the action is over that sort of thing. So one of the things that I did is I asked Chuck JpT What do I do with a witch for an arc? From the very beginning where she doesn’t like her magic to the end where she’s accepting of her magic and how does she go through the arc? And if we’re doing story grid for example, it knows story grid and so if you feed it enough information, you can actually get answers in the format that you like. So I spent the weekend I spent some time yesterday, delving deeper into interiores interiority. And rather than just accepting what Chachi PT gave me, I sent it off to my editor. And she came back and said, Well, it did okay for the first two questions, but then after that, it’s it’s BS. And so that’s why writers and editors will never go away because it just doesn’t know and you cannot take what it says verbatim.
Kevin Johns
I have struggled with it so much. What I really want it to do for me is I often I’ll teach a course and I’ll get a transcript of it, but I want that transcript edited. I want paragraphs added and typos corrected or whatever. Right. I cannot get it to do that. For me. I say, chat GPT I’m going to give you a piece of writing to not change it. Just add paragraphs. Can you do that? Check GPT goes Of course, I could do that. I say Okay, here it is. And then it changes. You changed it and they go oh, I’m sorry. There was some kind of miscommunication. I mean, this thing’s not gonna be like a beatin toolkit or Shakespeare anytime soon. I can’t even get it fixed.
Lorraine
Actually, I don’t use it for editing. Yeah, I use a little bit but I don’t use it for editing because of that reason, because it will come back and but it comes back with it’s totally changed the way it really wanted. So I’ve tried it a few times. And what I’ve ended up doing is editing the text.
Kevin Johns
Exactly. You’ve just added to stage. Yeah. So so obviously there we’ve touched on a little bit where Chat GPT is still struggling or isn’t that useful… Where do you see Chat GPT really shining for fiction authors?
Lorraine
For their writing process, I see it helping them like writer’s block, for example is something that I I just touched on in the past it writers can struggle with the scene for days, for days and days. Well, now if you just ask the question to check, check the T all of a sudden instead of days, it might be one day, because it gets the ideas flowing. So that’s one thing. The other thing that Chachi PT really helps with is the marketing side of books and emails and getting all of that. Now you still have to edit whatever emails and stuff that it produces, but it certainly cuts down on the level of work that you have to do. I know for myself when it comes to emails, it’s a lot easier to edit than to try and build something from new. So an emails are are actually based there are a lot of emails and a lot of information on the web. And so chatty, PT does a pretty good job with those.
Kevin Johns
Ah, it’s something I find really interesting about the book is, you know, someone might hear the title or hear our conversation say Oh, this is like a technology book. But I mean, I was looking at chapter three, in particular, its craft book, hey, you’re teaching Writer’s Craft in this book, and it’s within the context of how this tool can help you execute on Writer’s Craft, but ultimately, writing fiction with Chad GPT is a craft book of writers craft. Yes.
Lorraine
So one of the things that I really wanted to show in the book is the fact that chatty PT can be a really valuable tool no matter where in the craft you are there to learn. So for example, if you’re kidding about world building, so we’re building can be really fun because Chuck GPT can go absolutely crazy on you when you start feeding it some information but just like anything else, you take what is irrelevant, and you throw away the rest. And it really cuts down that length of time in order to build the world. And you can start with the political systems, the way people dress. Even the way people talk. And it will come back with you with ideas. Now, some of them are garbage. Some of them are actually pretty clever. So I wanted to take every element of the craft of what goes into a really good book and show how chat TPT can help the writer at that particular stage. four to either edit or do something with the scene.
Lorraine
If there’s a major problem with your scene, for example, there’s a hole in it Chachi PT will not find it for you unless you ask it. Specifically chatty PT is a computer program. It will follow your direction. And if your direction misses, to ask a question that is really central to having a good story, it’s not going to tell you.
Kevin Johns
In one of my group coaching programs, one of our writers is very against AI for writing and what he his argument is not like plagiarism related to that he says he thinks we grow through struggle and challenge and he thinks that with AI making things easier. Humans are going to become lazier or less creative or you know something negative. What’s your take on that? How do you respond to that? That side of things that this is making things too easy for writers?
Lorraine
So there are I have two ideas about this. For people who are not inclined to develop their craft. It will make it really easy for them. That doesn’t mean that it will be good writing. It doesn’t mean that they will win prizes. It doesn’t mean that if they will become, they will grow. as a person. as a writer. Now, so there’s that whole thing. on the other side.
What I found working with ChatGPT is that has forced me to become a better writer. And it has forced me writer because I’ve become a better editor. I’ve become more analytical in what the information it gives me. I’ve had I mean, I had a tweet. The day on Facebook, I put a little thing out of business. If you’re going to use Chachi PT know your story fundamentals. Otherwise, it’s the blind leading the blind so on one hand, yes, he’s right. He’s right in that it makes it easier for people who are not inclined to learn the craft and to really improve to get stuff out there and people may or may not buy it. The other thing is is their reputation will be solidified. With the quality of the books that they put out. So let’s not forget that too. I’m always one where I want the quality of my books to be superior to be really, really high. And so for me, I see Chuck GPT just as supporting me as I go through and learn the craft and a couple of times that has challenged me in the response that they came back with. And so I’ve gone off and I’ve done my own research and my own development, if you will my own learning as to whether this was actually the right way to do it. The other thing to realize is that because Chachi PT learned on patterns and identification of patterns when you have a spriters We don’t always follow the rules. And so sometimes our sentences do not contain a verb and a noun. But it makes the reading more interesting and may set gives more emphasis to where we want the emphasis to be. You’ll never get that from Chachi petite, it will always give you a full and complete set.
Kevin Johns
It’s like Data from Star Trek not being able to use contractions, right? Yes,
Lorraine
Yes, absolutely. That’s exactly what it is.
Kevin Johns
Do you have any thoughts on Chat GPT for fiction writing that we haven’t touched on yet? Do you have any final advice or tips to share with people?
Lorraine
We are at the beginning of this evolution. And I think that what we’re going to see is we’re going to see either the chiclet style start to get better. More than anything. We control the tool, because without a does chart TPT can’t work without our prompt without our questions. It doesn’t know what to do. And so we are always and will always be in control of what Chuck GPT does. The question becomes whether we’re going to make it our friend or our enemy. And I think that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to AI. and it is. I like to think of it as a teenager right now, maybe even a child. because it is doing all kinds of things. It’s doing it probably not Well, eventually things will get refined and better defined and the regulator’s will come in and they will deal with all the the legal questions of copyright protection and all of that. So I think we’re at the beginning and I think that we’re in for interesting times. And I think that by the end of it for those of us who really value stories, and really good stories, we’re going to find that it will become another tool like Scrivener or pro writing aid, or one of these tools that we use and take for granted today.
Kevin Johns
I love it. Lorraine, if folks want to connect with you if they want to learn more about you in the book, where should we send them?
Lorraine
The place to go would be write fiction? Check gpt.com That’s where there’s a description of the book and a link to Amazon in order to buy it. On that page. I also provide templates for people to use because one of the things that I found is just like anything else, if you have an example to follow, it becomes easier to learn. And so what I’ve done is I’ve provided templates for every part of the Writer’s Craft that I mentioned in the book so people can start to use it and to learn it. So there are freebies there and you’ll be able to sign up to my newsletter, which is currently under development. One of the things that I’ve decided that I’m going to do is look at the AI marketplace. And everything that’s happening and pinpoint the places that writers should be aware of things developments that are happening.
Kevin Johns
Fantastic. Lorraine, having worked with you for years. I know the heart and soul and tears that you put into your work and your writing and I gotta tell you, I’m so so proud of you with the success you’ve had with this book. Every bit of success is so well earned and people you know, people who aren’t coaches don’t see how much work goes on behind the scenes with writers and you know, a lot of that emotional work and intellectual work and physical work of being at a computer all day and all of that and I’ve been there alongside you and it’s just such a pleasure to see you have so much success.
Lorraine
Well thank you so much. Kevin. And one of the things that I want to do in all of this is I want to give back to the writing community. Because through all of this, I’ve received a lot of support. And this is my way to help people during this transition. So the fiction writing for Chachi PT it’s actually just the beginning of my journey in order to help the riders go through as we go through this mulches time.
Kevin Johns
Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Lorraine
Thanks a lot for having me, Kevin.
