In this episode of The Writing Coach podcast, writing coach Kevin Johns speaks with author and writing coach Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer.
Sarah is an author and writing instructor who takes authors struggling to master the tools and knowledge of their author journey and help them become confident in writing their books. She has been featured on Joanna Penn’s The Creative Penn podcast, Mark Dawson’s Self Publishing Show, Jane Friedman’s blog, and more.
As a tribal member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, her signature course, Fiction Writing: American Indians, equips authors to write authentic stories that honor Native American history and culture. Her Dictation Bootcamp for Authors takes authors through the process of mastering dictation through easy exercises that help them become masters of their fictional worlds.
Listen now:
The Writing Coach Episode #204 Show Notes
Register for Kevin and Sarah’s FREE Dictation for Authors masterclass here!
Visit Sarah’s website: http://www.fictioncourses.com/
The Writing Coach Episode #204 Transcript
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On the podcast today, I have Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer. Sarah, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me on, Kevin. I’m looking forward to this.
Tell me a little bit about how you got involved in books and writing. Were they always a big part of your life when you were growing up?
I’m guilty, like most writers, I started reading at an early age. I started writing at an early age. Though honestly, I wrote my first story when I was five. It was about kindness, and I was terribly shy, though I knew I would never be able to verbalize it. The only way I could share that message was through writing. So, my mom had given me a stack of sticky notes, and I wrote it over about five of those. My brother, who was seven at the time, illustrated it. I’m so grateful to my mom for saving it. And so, I was pretty well hooked on writing and stories ever since then.
Sounds like you came from a supportive environment. Your mom and your family supported your writing?
100%, and later on, of course, my dad was a huge supporter. He passed in 2012, but it was always his dream for me to live my dream as a writer.
At what point did that become a tangible dream in terms of, “This is actually what I’m going to do with my life?”
Oh, wow. I’m so glad you asked that question. I love sharing this story because I hit a point at 23 years old. I always had this entrepreneurial spirit, like I knew I wanted to start businesses and work for myself, work from home, all of that. This was about 15 years ago now. That was my dream. I had a lot of different stuff going on, and I actually hit a breaking point really quick, really early on. I just had a meltdown, to be honest. I put everything aside and stopped for about three days. It was like everything in my life was written on this blackboard—everything I was doing, everything I was supposed to be doing, everything I thought everyone else thought I was supposed to be doing—and it was all just strewn on this blackboard. I had this moment, you know, I’m a Christian, and I’ve always believed in surrendering everything to God. But I was like, “Am I really ready to do that? Am I really going to do that with my life?” So, I just started erasing those things off my life, one by one. When I came to writing, I stopped because I thought, “What if God doesn’t give this back to me?” I was committed that anything He didn’t direct me back to, I wasn’t going to take back in my life. It was really hard. I had to pause and evaluate for a while. “Am I really prepared to surrender and give this up for life?” So, I did. I wiped it off clean and handed the chalk over to God. Nothing happened for about seven months, except I experienced a tremendous amount of peace in my life and just a calmness. I knew I was settled. About seven months later, I walked into a Barnes & Noble, went over to the magazines, and there was Writer’s Digest on the stand. I picked it up, and it was like I immediately felt God saying, “This is what you’re to do with your life. You’re to be a writer.” So, I started the journey. What’s really amazing is just this week, I turned in articles for Writer’s Digest. I’m going to be their indie spotlight author this fall, and I’ve got an article coming out on their online publication as well. It’s been an incredible journey, and I’m very grateful for where I’m at now.
Congratulations. I think in our space, the writing instructional space, getting published in Writer’s Digest is kind of like the New York Times for other people, right?
Exactly. I mean, it’s the thing that we idolize. Like, “Oh, those authors that write for Writer’s Digest, they are the premiere of the premiere.” I don’t feel that about myself, but it is a great honor to be in there.
It’s interesting, that process you talked about of wiping things off the board. I don’t know if you’re familiar, but that’s actually a common goal-setting technique that people do in workshops. They say, “List the 10 things you want to accomplish this year, now erase eight of them.”
Oh, yeah, that’s a tough one. And I’m a big goal setter, you know, high achiever, all of those things. It can wear you out quickly. So, that’s actually a really smart strategy with your goal setting.
You mentioned you’d be an indie spotlight for Writer’s Digest. Was that a big decision in your life in terms of going traditional or indie?
Absolutely. I had that fork in the road, like, “Which way am I going to go—traditional or indie?” I published my first book in 2013, so it’s been a little over a decade now. Back then, indie was not what it is today. It wasn’t as respected. You had the ebook revolution, and people were just in the Gold Rush to get their books on ebook, ditching traditional publishers. I knew a lot of traditionally published authors. I talked to them and assessed where they were at. One of the biggest things all authors were running into was marketing. That was always a big bonus for traditional publishing—they handle all the marketing. At that point, with the internet and social media, it was really being pushed back over to the authors. So, I thought, “Well, that kind of eliminates one of the biggest pluses of traditional publishing.” I weighed everything. I was in a program with the Smithsonian National Museum of American Indian, and as part of that project, I was to publish a book, a short story collection with other Choctaw authors. I hoped they might do it, but they only did nonfiction. They actually encouraged me to go ahead and publish it myself. So, I did, and I haven’t looked back. I love the creative control. Although I did get my first traditionally published book a couple of years ago through Chickasaw Press, my first nonfiction book. That book just won the Oklahoma Book Awards, which we were very excited about. It’s in the Library of Congress for their National Book Festival selection to represent the state of Oklahoma. So, there are some pros to traditional publishing. If you want to get more of the accolades, that’s one route. I don’t enter my indie-published books for any awards, but Chickasaw Press is very gracious to do that, and we’re really proud of that project.
Well, promote the book! Tell us the name and where people can pick it up.
Otis Leader: The Ideal American Doughboy. He was a Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, and Irish World War I hero. We’re really proud of his story. Please go to chickasawpress.com and support them by buying direct there. Fantastic.
Well, that sounds like a nice segue into what in Canada we call indigenous issues. Maybe you call them American Indian. Tell us a bit about how those issues play a role in your life and your writing.
Yeah, the terminology is something I cover in my course Fiction Writing American Indians. I spend a whole module on just terminology—American Indians, indigenous, First Nations, First People, Native American. We like the term First American, and that’s what the Chickasaws have been adopting as well. Being a tribal member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, I have seven books featuring Choctaw main characters. Other titles are inspired by the first American Indian woman doctor. All of my books have native main characters. It’s a huge part of my mission to include our people in mainstream entertainment and teach true history and culture through fiction, preserving our history and culture.
Obviously, First Americans have a long tradition of teaching through storytelling. Have you adopted any of those techniques into your fiction writing or teaching?
Yes, I started studying Native American storytellers through a conference called the Five Tribe Story Conference. The best native storytellers in the country would come there to teach and tell their stories. I was enthralled with their techniques for captivating and engaging the audience. It was a lovely environment. That had a huge impact on my written word, which is my first love. So, a lot of those techniques go into my written fiction.
It’s interesting because you said there’s an oral tradition, but your love is the written word, and it sounds like you’ve managed to merge the two via dictation.
Oh yes, dictation is something I love to share with people because we are an oral storytelling people. Some might think dictation isn’t real writing—you need to be at a keyboard typing—but we’ve been telling stories for thousands of years without written language. Cultures around the world have done the same. We pass on and entertain through stories orally. With today’s tools and technology, we can get our written words down through speaking.
I know you’re a Scrivener expert. You’re a big Scrivener user, but beginners often think they need Scrivener to be a real writer. I always say, “Virginia Woolf didn’t have Scrivener. Shakespeare didn’t have Scrivener.” To be a writer, it’s not all about putting fingers on the keyboard.
Absolutely. I started out handwriting all of my stories. The first time I typed a story was on an old Canon typewriter. It had a little screen where you could see one sentence at a time before it printed on the page. I was too intimidated to write a story with that, so I transcribed a handwritten story. That’s how I learned to type. I graduated to an old desktop computer, then a laptop, and now dictation. It’s not about the form or the physical act of typing, handwriting, or speaking—it’s all writing. You’re capturing your stories. I encourage authors to find what works well for them and what’s most beneficial for their writing journey.
We’ll circle back to the topic of dictation, but first, I’d love to hear about how you became a writing coach. You said your first book was about a decade ago. When did teaching come into it?
I created my first course in 2022, but I was teaching workshops even before I published my first book. Pre-2011, 2012, I was already teaching workshops. I continued to teach in-person workshops, at conferences, and summits. Authors resonated with my teaching style because of my openness and willingness to answer questions and explain things thoroughly. I still feel like I’m in that place sometimes, so I understand the need to explain things thoroughly and not assume everyone knows the terms, technology, or tools we’re talking about. I help authors gain confidence, even if they’re beginners or feel they’ve missed some pieces along the way. I taught in-person workshops and conferences for several years. In 2022, I finally took my mom’s advice and started creating digital courses. It’s been fantastic. I love reaching authors around the world and teaching the craft of writing.
Do you want to tell the listeners about the courses you offer?
Absolutely. They’re all on fictioncourses.com. My signature course is Fiction Writing American Indians. It’s a topic I taught for several years at different conferences because authors needed a source to ask, “How do I write about American Indians? How can I be respectful towards the Native American community while writing about their history and culture?” Authors don’t want to erase Native Americans from history or contemporary times, but they also fear backlash on social media. There are few resources for authors who want to write respectfully and accurately about Native Americans. I’m in both worlds—I understand the author’s perspective of wanting diversity and the First American perspective of preventing the misuse of our history and culture. We have a great responsibility to correct misconceptions and stereotypes. All of this is in my course, Fiction Writing American Indians. My other course, Fictation, focuses on dictation. I coined the term “fictation” for the act of dictating your fiction. I’m very excited about that. I teach a dictation boot camp twice a year. Authors can join live, but there was still more I could teach them to help solidify themselves as dictating authors. So, that course is coming out soon.
I know you said you got into dictation not just to write faster. Can you tell us what led you to embrace dictation and how you introduce it to writers?
Writing faster is a huge draw, and it’s what kept me coming back to dictation. I tried and failed many times before mastering it. I’ve written 11 books via dictation. Beyond writing faster, the health benefits are significant. I’m always on guard for the health of my eyes, considering how much we look at computer screens. Dictating my first draft saves my eyes. I also dictate while on the treadmill, doing dishes, or lying down. It takes the strain off my neck and back, especially since I’ve had back issues. Dictation allows me to get my first draft done without being hunched over a keyboard for hours. I can go outside and enjoy the sunshine or stretch out and rest while getting my words in.
This is what attracted me to you. I have a client who can’t type without severe pain, so she’s had to embrace dictation. When I met you and found out you taught this, I was excited. I’ve had health troubles and lost hearing in one ear. Suddenly, I’m more aware of accessibility and barriers to storytelling. That’s why I was thrilled to join you in co-hosting a masterclass on dictation.
I’m so excited to partner with you on this, Kevin. When you shared your story, I thought, “Yes, someone else into dictation and teaching authors.” Accessibility is crucial. Many older authors are intimidated by technology, but I don’t want that to stop them from writing. Most of my boot camp attendees are in their 50s, 60s, or 70s. Age and fear of technology shouldn’t stop you from becoming an author or dictating your work.
I hit 40, and life changed. In my early coaching days, I pushed the “work harder” mindset. But at 40, I realized it’s not just about work. Many people spend their lives wanting to write a book but only find time after retirement. They may not have the energy of a 30-year-old. Dictation can help them fulfill their dreams without the physical strain of typing.
Exactly. The Assistant Chief of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, Jack Austin Jr., endorsed my book, Otis W. Leader. He shared how he and his dad used dictation to capture stories. His dad has passed, but they preserved those stories. Dictation takes less physical energy, especially for older writers. Writing fiction energizes me, and dictation allows me to capture that without physical strain.
It sounds new and cutting-edge, but authors have been dictating forever. John Donne dictated his famous poem while ill. Thomas Aquinas reportedly had three scribes writing three different books at once. Dictation is both old and new.
I can visualize someone running around a room dictating to multiple scribes. It’s funny to think about.
I’m excited to host this class with you on June 7 at 7 pm. The link will be in the show notes (REGISTER HERE). Any final thoughts or where people can find you?
Yes, visit fictioncourses.com for a free PDF on the five stereotypes to avoid when writing about Native Americans. I also created a free mini-course, Dictation Plus Scrivener Power Combo, available there. Don’t be intimidated by Scrivener; it’s powerful, and you only need to know a little. Thank you, Kevin. In Choctaw, we say “Yako key” for thank you, and “chipisa lachiki” for goodbye, meaning “I will see you again soon.”
